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rat_jamMJ Panel Mod: shihadachick
Note: Due to some personal time constraints, this post is going to be a little light - I hope to come back post-Jamboree and add some information, especially in the form of some forensics information that we may have as handouts on the day, but for now this is more the guidance questions I plan to use, and a few meta-ish thoughts. Please do jump in with any useful information, or things that worked (or that didn't work!) for you in fic. Cheers.
* * *
It seems as if every time we turn around there's another crime procedural show on TV. They may not have the biggest fandoms (yet!) but there's definitely a lot of potential there for fannish creation, and what this discussion aims to do is to give everyone a chance to discuss tools to use for any type of fic that has more than a glossing of crime plot or forensic detail involved.
First, a framing point - to my mind, investigative fandoms covers everything from the obvious CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, Bones, and so on, to the buddy cop shows like due South, the Sentinel, and even Starsky and Hutch, to shows like Veronica Mars, and Angel, and, well, frankly, I think if it's got a fandom, there's probably people wanting to write crime-based plots for it.
One of the most important things I can think of about this topic is that what you can do in terms of forensics and criminal behaviour is going to be - to a degree - defined by the fandom you're working in. If you're in a fandom which works very close to reality, then your characters are going to need to take account of the fact that DNA evidence does NOT get processed overnight. If you're in a fandom which traditionally glosses over this point - CSI, I'm looking fondly at you, here! - then you've got a bit more wiggle-room. Setting - both location and in time - is also going to need to be something you should consider - if you're working with due South and you're writing inside the show's run then some of the forensics tools we're used to using in other fandoms aren't as commonly used - although, of course, if you're working with due South you've also got Fraser playing a mass spectrometer on legs, so that's possibly not the best example.
Trying to stay within the bounds of logic and physical laws is another point that may be useful to your story as well - if you can act part of it out (or play it out with models), sometimes that'll add a dimension or a twist you might not have thought about before. An example of something along those lines that I have to share - before turning this over to the room at large to see what else turns up - is from Lois McMaster Bujold's books. In one short story, our protaganist Miles is making an escape from a prison camp, in an air shuttle. As they take off, the door is damaged, and a woman he's become friendly with falls through the hatch. He grabs after her, misses, and berates himself ever after for missing the grab. Why's this relevant? It's relevant if I give you another two pieces of information: firstly, that Miles is 4'11'' and doesn't weigh very much himself, and secondly that the woman was about six feet tall. In a later book, Miles has a flashback to this event caused by a similar (and less fatal!) incident, and realises that if he had managed to grab hold of her hand in the first place, he'd have been pulled out with her. I hadn't put that together myself until the author had Miles realise it, and it's something that hits me every time.
Basically, what I'd love to discuss through this panel is what sorts of things we can do with a basic working knowledge of forensics, what kind of crime plots work best for the story and what are the kinds of things which trigger every disbelief alarm we have?
Are there certain crimes (or possibly certain treatments of crimes) which are over-used? Stereotyped?
How can we use a crime-based plot to further characterisation? What about the forensic evidence?
What are some strategies people have used with success to hook a crime plot into a secondary plot without letting it overpower that?
What are some common errors in forensics-related details? For example, if we read a detail that makes it clear our investigator isn't wearing gloves? Unless that's going to be a plot point, that's a big no-no. Or hair not being tied back - although again, many shows will elide that for the sake of the 'pretty'.
Where, as writers, can we find resources to learn more about the forensics side?
Having our characters make mistakes - both in handling the evidence and in interpreting it - what can this add to a story?
Adapting existing crimes from real life/other sources - how can this be helpful, and how can it be dangerous? (With outright plagiarism of other fiction excluded, since I think that's usually pretty clear.)
Are there certain shows which lend themselves more to a particular type of crime? Does the nature of the crime (or the violence/degree of graphic depiction thereof) change depending on the fandoms you write for?
I hope we can pool a lot of useful points for this topic, and thank you in advance to everyone for contributing.
Note: Due to some personal time constraints, this post is going to be a little light - I hope to come back post-Jamboree and add some information, especially in the form of some forensics information that we may have as handouts on the day, but for now this is more the guidance questions I plan to use, and a few meta-ish thoughts. Please do jump in with any useful information, or things that worked (or that didn't work!) for you in fic. Cheers.
* * *
It seems as if every time we turn around there's another crime procedural show on TV. They may not have the biggest fandoms (yet!) but there's definitely a lot of potential there for fannish creation, and what this discussion aims to do is to give everyone a chance to discuss tools to use for any type of fic that has more than a glossing of crime plot or forensic detail involved.
First, a framing point - to my mind, investigative fandoms covers everything from the obvious CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, Bones, and so on, to the buddy cop shows like due South, the Sentinel, and even Starsky and Hutch, to shows like Veronica Mars, and Angel, and, well, frankly, I think if it's got a fandom, there's probably people wanting to write crime-based plots for it.
One of the most important things I can think of about this topic is that what you can do in terms of forensics and criminal behaviour is going to be - to a degree - defined by the fandom you're working in. If you're in a fandom which works very close to reality, then your characters are going to need to take account of the fact that DNA evidence does NOT get processed overnight. If you're in a fandom which traditionally glosses over this point - CSI, I'm looking fondly at you, here! - then you've got a bit more wiggle-room. Setting - both location and in time - is also going to need to be something you should consider - if you're working with due South and you're writing inside the show's run then some of the forensics tools we're used to using in other fandoms aren't as commonly used - although, of course, if you're working with due South you've also got Fraser playing a mass spectrometer on legs, so that's possibly not the best example.
Trying to stay within the bounds of logic and physical laws is another point that may be useful to your story as well - if you can act part of it out (or play it out with models), sometimes that'll add a dimension or a twist you might not have thought about before. An example of something along those lines that I have to share - before turning this over to the room at large to see what else turns up - is from Lois McMaster Bujold's books. In one short story, our protaganist Miles is making an escape from a prison camp, in an air shuttle. As they take off, the door is damaged, and a woman he's become friendly with falls through the hatch. He grabs after her, misses, and berates himself ever after for missing the grab. Why's this relevant? It's relevant if I give you another two pieces of information: firstly, that Miles is 4'11'' and doesn't weigh very much himself, and secondly that the woman was about six feet tall. In a later book, Miles has a flashback to this event caused by a similar (and less fatal!) incident, and realises that if he had managed to grab hold of her hand in the first place, he'd have been pulled out with her. I hadn't put that together myself until the author had Miles realise it, and it's something that hits me every time.
Basically, what I'd love to discuss through this panel is what sorts of things we can do with a basic working knowledge of forensics, what kind of crime plots work best for the story and what are the kinds of things which trigger every disbelief alarm we have?
Are there certain crimes (or possibly certain treatments of crimes) which are over-used? Stereotyped?
How can we use a crime-based plot to further characterisation? What about the forensic evidence?
What are some strategies people have used with success to hook a crime plot into a secondary plot without letting it overpower that?
What are some common errors in forensics-related details? For example, if we read a detail that makes it clear our investigator isn't wearing gloves? Unless that's going to be a plot point, that's a big no-no. Or hair not being tied back - although again, many shows will elide that for the sake of the 'pretty'.
Where, as writers, can we find resources to learn more about the forensics side?
Having our characters make mistakes - both in handling the evidence and in interpreting it - what can this add to a story?
Adapting existing crimes from real life/other sources - how can this be helpful, and how can it be dangerous? (With outright plagiarism of other fiction excluded, since I think that's usually pretty clear.)
Are there certain shows which lend themselves more to a particular type of crime? Does the nature of the crime (or the violence/degree of graphic depiction thereof) change depending on the fandoms you write for?
I hope we can pool a lot of useful points for this topic, and thank you in advance to everyone for contributing.
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no subject
Date: 2007-03-30 03:42 pm (UTC)Wondering about investigative procedures at a burgulary scene? How the FBI profiles killers? What stake-outs are really like? How welcome PIs are at crime scenes? Interrogation techiniques for suspects? What kind of handgun your killer might use? How street gangs are organized? These books have it all.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 04:45 am (UTC)Yes! If it's not an investigative fandom on the face of it, there are more genre issues to think about (omg HARD, as you can see by the non-appearance of that Marlow crossover I keep talking about), but then genre-crossing is fun. And stress is always a good way to show character and progress relationships quickly.
(Speaking of improbable technology, I really want the CSI labs' graphics setup. PRETTY. I would use it for watching giant displays of TV shows, not solving crime, but never mind that!)
Are there certain shows which lend themselves more to a particular type of crime?
With Due South, at least, I find myself wanting more of the sort of crimes we see on the show - not unimportant or without emotional effects, but treated with about the same level of heaviness and harrowingness (if that was a word) as a murder in a Dorothy Sayers novel. The grittier, harrowing fics can be wonderful, too, but they kick me out of the happy place the show usually sends me to. (Though of course, sometimes that's exactly what I'm in the mood for.)
Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 08:23 am (UTC)I can recommend an excellent book that I stumbled across in the Bodleian Library while researching an X-Files fanfic. It is called "Illustrated Guide to Crime Scene Investigation," is by Nicholas Petraco and Hal Sherman, and offers an exhaustively-detailed and copiously-illustrated resource for exactly what it is that investigators do at crime scenes. You could never in a million years use all of these details in your stories.
http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Guide-Crime-Scene-Investigation/dp/0849322634
Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 12:42 pm (UTC)Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 12:47 pm (UTC)Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 02:58 pm (UTC)Though I try not to speculate too much yet about how the characters will interact, before I got the setup all ready. I'll want their reactions to be fresh and spontaneous, if that makes any sense.
Of course the setup, in this genre, is the tricky part. I admire those writers who can write a plausible casefile. Much easier in fandoms like Buffy or Supernatural, where you can create some demon or prophecy or whatnot, and you got the setup for a plot.
Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 03:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 05:02 pm (UTC)My first fandom was x-files, where many many fic authors did a better job than canon at crimescene details. It's my experience that the source texts often get the details quite wrong (I can't watch CSI for this reason). While I'm not a forensic scientist by far, my (unused) degree is in biomedical science and I once wanted to be a medical examiner and so did a lot of reading in the area. Yes, I think I was morbid for awhile there in college; what can I say, I idolized Scully:)
What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I think fic writers shouldn't be intimidated by writing investigation stories - chances are your source text has done it worse than you could ever do, and you'll be convincing enough to the casual reader if you take a little time with some reference books, or the book series Keerawa suggests. Plus, detail overkill will bog down your story faster than glossing over a few details ever would.
Common errors I've noticed (and this is in the source texts, not fic so much):
1. Labs with super hi-tech equipment (Bones, I'm looking at you) - even the FBI labs have been accused of being sloppy and behind the times. Chances are, the technicians aren't working with the best equipment money could buy. And they don't have super-duper imaging software that can three-dimensionally visualize a fingerprint or whatever. Bones is set in a Smithsonian knock-off, and I'm telling you right now the gov't doesn't give enough cash to repair the buildings, let alone cough up the kind of bling that show uses on a regular basis.
2. Lab techs who double as interrogators and chase criminals. Or even, you know, leave the lab. I can give tv shows the benefit of the doubt here (how interesting would it really be to have a drama about people in white coats who spend hours bent over a microscope or test tube??) but in RL this just wouldn't be the case.
3. As you mentioned, the time factor. These tests take time. You won't get results overnight. Hardly any drama I've seen gets this part right.
4. Cops who should know better messing with a fresh crime scene. Unfortunately, I think this happens in RL as well as fiction. But ideally, nothing should be touched or moved unless you're doing it to save someone's life.
5. Very few forensic psychologists or profilers are psychic. (even if I love the ones who are, whether canonically or fanonically).
6. getting DNA and/or fingerprints off of any possible surface. It just can't be done. And it's a relatively easy thing to check in reference books.
7. VICAP is a computer database, not a unit of law enforcement (like Homicide or Vice divisions).
At one point there was a great website resource put together with the X-Files fandom in mind (was it Behavioral Science Unit?) Anyway, there may be similar fan-driven resources out there.
Also, in closing, the former profiler Robert Ressler has published some books on the subject that could be useful.
sorry for the long post!
no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 05:13 pm (UTC)I agree that the hi-tech stuff on this show is mostly unbelievable, however they have made it clear that the Jeffersonian gets part of its funding from generous non-government donors. Jack Hodgins' family business is its biggest supporter I believe. So with that in mind, I can see Jack secretly supplying money so they can have the best bling in town.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 05:13 pm (UTC)Having our characters make mistakes - both in handling the evidence and in interpreting it - what can this add to a story?
I think this can be a great character point, if done well. Cops are human too - they get tired, they make mistakes. And these mistakes can mean the difference between catching a criminal and another death; or once you have the suspect in custody, it can be the difference between conviction and a killer going free. Or, conversely, it can condemn an innocent person.
Also, science can easily be misinterpreted - forensic tests give you a lot of raw fact, but don't always point to a clear cut answer. So the interpretation of the raw data is just as important as securing said data.
Adapting existing crimes from real life/other sources - how can this be helpful, and how can it be dangerous? (With outright plagiarism of other fiction excluded, since I think that's usually pretty clear.)
This is an excellent question to ponder. As writers we can be plot magpies. And shows like CSI and Law and Order do this all the time - how many plots have seemed very familiar and you realize they've adapted a RL case? But the question comes in - is this ethical? Real people's real lives were effected, and sometimes destroyed by these events.
So I think as writers we have to be careful not to exploit the pain of real people. I think that while real life events can be a useful source, they should be just that - a source. Not something to be lifted whole cloth and plunked down into your own fic (or show). If that makes sense?? Even if the readers of your fic will never know that these details were taken from someone's real life, it just strikes me as wrong and exploitative. Just my opinion, of course!
no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 05:16 pm (UTC)ANother thing I forgot to add is that many local police agencies have to send their evidence to larger labs; so this adds to the time. Not all police agencies have their own forensic unit.
Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 05:19 pm (UTC)Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 09:09 pm (UTC)You're absolutely right about that. I love the long X-Files police procedural fics, in some ways almost more than the show.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-31 09:11 pm (UTC)Forensic Medicine for Medical Students (http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/index.htm)
Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-03-31 09:19 pm (UTC)(via <lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2007-04-01 05:03 am (UTC)Sure, you're going to get scenarios where the guy who knocked over the 7-11 hit the Eject button on the security camera VCR to steal the tape, and the clueless detective swabs it and brings it down to the forensics lab (where they will laugh at him; most forensic analysts I have known will turn around and tell the detective "if he didn't spit on it, bleed on it, or come on it, I'm not going to get a profile off it"), and that won't have the DNA profile you're looking for; there wasn't enough contact.
But you can very often get a workable profile, sufficient for entering into CODIS or a state database, from, say, the steering wheel of a car that the carjacker drove for no more than five or ten minutes, or the door handle of the car, especially if the perp was sweating heavily. Epithelial cells are very easy to pick up, and you can usually get a workable profile off a steering wheel/doorknob/computer keyboard/etc that's had minimum contact. There are lots of environmental factors, and a lot of variables involving how much contact the perp had with the surface, but nine times out of ten it's actually easier to get a profile out of epithelial cells than blood or semen.
The real Holy Grail of evidence, the one you can almost always get a profile off of? Cigarette butts. Ditto water bottles/soda cans/drinking glasses/etc. You're also usually able to get a workable profile from a garment such as a t-shirt, especially around the neckline and armpits. It's very common, in fact, for a shirt to be a very strong piece of evidence in a murder or assault case, because it will have the victim's blood and the perp's skin cells on it.
(My girlfriend (
Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-04-01 11:25 am (UTC)Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-04-01 01:28 pm (UTC)Yeah, I want to see if they can order it at the bookstore to preview. They usually do that, just don't know if they do it for foreign titles. Though that book should be tax-deductable for me, which makes the price a lot less prohibitive.
Re: (via <lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2007-04-01 02:57 pm (UTC)Re: Here via Metafandom
Date: 2007-04-02 04:22 pm (UTC)Another really good book that I found at the same time, although it might not be quite what you're looking for, is "Cold Case Homicides: Practical Investigative Techniques" (http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Case-Homicides-Investigative-Techniques/dp/084932209X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7106261-2569615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175530732&sr=1-1) by Richard Walton. It seems to me to be of wider relevance than the title suggests; I could feel myself putting together story scenarios while just looking through it...
Do let me know what you end up buying. I'm curious!
Thank you!
Date: 2007-04-02 08:10 pm (UTC)I also looked into the 'Howdunit' series mentioned above, but it appears that those books in a lower price range aren't quite up-to-date.